P3D vs MS2020

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xmitr
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby xmitr » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:41 pm

To try out MS2020 I subscribed to it via the X-Box game pass. As an initial offering the world environment looks very impressive but the lack of decent help files other than what the alpha users have posted makes it very difficult to set up properly. The interface is so weird I don't think it will ever be set up the way a serious simmer would like. It's just a toy.

Others have talked about XP11. The graphics are excellent there too but my experiences with it find it lacking in multimonitor support.

So I cancelled the MS2020 subscription. Maybe I'll check back in 6 months or a year. I now have new respect for what LM have accomplished with P3D.

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Wonderboy
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby Wonderboy » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:19 pm

Wonderboy,

You are, with all respect, comparing apples and oranges.

MSFS 2020 and Prepar3D were designed for completely different target audiences - MSFS 2020 for the amateur arcade-gamer, who wants something flashy to look at, and Prepar3D for realistic flying training, up to and including (in the Professional Plus version) weapons training.

Jorgen
LOL. P3D is a deep modernization of the FSX engine, but for so many years the fundamental shortcomings of its predecessor have not been solved - performance directly rests on the first core, even if you have a 20-core processor. Have an 11GB graphics card? All the same, we will use only 3-4 GB, and reload everything else even when switching to appearance and back. Have 32GB of RAM? We don't need that much, even though we have a 64-bit engine. We'd rather load the data in parts and at the same time have a jerky picture. Need normal lighting? We'd rather customize each element of the image with our own shader. Need to change the time by one hour? Ok, let's reload the whole scene after that.
Continue?

Do you think that MSFS2020 has too bright picture? So remove the post-processing in the config file and get realistic colors. No military planes? It is not yet. And P3D does not reach the level of DCS. Realistic flight training? According to reviews on the forum, many VFR pilots have ALREADY switched to flight training in the new sim because of the much greater realism. Normal airliners will go on sale - IFR pilots will also switch, do not even hesitate.
You should never rest on your laurels, otherwise the story of Nokia and Intel with their 10 +++ nm will repeat itself

JorgenSA
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby JorgenSA » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:54 pm

Your comparison to FSX does not hold any water either today.

If you haven't noticed it, v. 4 and v. 5 of P3D are 64-bit, which requires a total recompilation of the old core engine. That it uses the same structure and configuration parameters just means it is easier backwards-compatible, something you cannot say about MSFS 2020. You can also easily make P3D use all cores (like you can with FSX) by using the AffinityMask parameter correctly.

But what really disappointed me personally in MSFS 2020 was that a Boeing 787 handles just like a Cessna 172. This is such an elementary mistake, and one that makes me - and others - classify MSFS 2020 as an arcade game as it is right now. Therefore its usability as a teaching tool is very much in question. Plus that all the other omissions and mistakes, that you can read about in the forums, really makes me think that it is a product where the product manager set an unrealistic timeline for release, and therefore wrote off all bug reports being "as designed". Reports both from alpha and beta testers indicate that also.

Jorgen
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All views and opinions expressed here are entirely my own. I am not a Lockheed-Martin employee.

Uriah
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby Uriah » Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:07 pm

I posted on the the MSFS2020 forum and Orbx Forum that MSFS2020 was desighned for the X-Box and the shoot em up brigade and was for the kids and not a true flight simulator as FSX was or P3D and X-Plane is now. I was promptly shot down by many many people who in my opinion are just programmed darlics. I did say that the graphics was excellent and the colour detailing was close to spot on, but they can gladly keep the rest. Now what Lockheed Martin need to do is get the same graphics detail as MSFS2020 and intigrate P3Dv5 with that type of graphics and colouring and it will be the best Flight Simulator ever. End of story.

JorgenSA
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby JorgenSA » Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:38 pm

Yep, I wrote in a forum here that MSFS2020 is an arcade game... some didn't like that!

Jorgen
System: i7-7700K @ 4.66 GHz, ASUS Z170-A motherboard, 16 GB 3200 MHz DDR4 RAM, nVidia GTX 960 w/ 4 GB DDR5 VRAM, Windows 10 Home.

All views and opinions expressed here are entirely my own. I am not a Lockheed-Martin employee.

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Martyson
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby Martyson » Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:58 pm

I posted on the the MSFS2020 forum and Orbx Forum that MSFS2020 was desighned for the X-Box and the shoot em up brigade and was for the kids and not a true flight simulator as FSX was or P3D and X-Plane is now. I was promptly shot down by many many people who in my opinion are just programmed darlics. I did say that the graphics was excellent and the colour detailing was close to spot on, but they can gladly keep the rest. Now what Lockheed Martin need to do is get the same graphics detail as MSFS2020 and intigrate P3Dv5 with that type of graphics and colouring and it will be the best Flight Simulator ever. End of story.
@ Uriah ,

Did you purchase MSFS [2020] and test it?

Are you a real world pilot (got a Pilot's license) ?
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell (KDTW)

JorgenSA
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby JorgenSA » Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:21 pm

What in the world has being a real-world pilot got to do with opinions on MSFS2020 being an X-Box Console game or an arcade game?

Answer: NOTHING.

You asked me the same question when I dared to mention my opinion of MSFS2020 as an arcade game.

My answer then was: none of your business.

Why? Because that is an attempt to derail the discussion from the topic in this thread, by trying to intimidate (or insult) other participants in the discussion.

Jorgen
System: i7-7700K @ 4.66 GHz, ASUS Z170-A motherboard, 16 GB 3200 MHz DDR4 RAM, nVidia GTX 960 w/ 4 GB DDR5 VRAM, Windows 10 Home.

All views and opinions expressed here are entirely my own. I am not a Lockheed-Martin employee.

choppa
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby choppa » Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:39 am

I posted on the the MSFS2020 forum and Orbx Forum that MSFS2020 was desighned for the X-Box and the shoot em up brigade and was for the kids and not a true flight simulator as FSX was or P3D and X-Plane is now. I was promptly shot down by many many people who in my opinion are just programmed darlics. I did say that the graphics was excellent and the colour detailing was close to spot on, but they can gladly keep the rest. Now what Lockheed Martin need to do is get the same graphics detail as MSFS2020 and intigrate P3Dv5 with that type of graphics and colouring and it will be the best Flight Simulator ever. End of story.
@ Uriah ,

Did you purchase MSFS [2020] and test it?

Are you a real world pilot (got a Pilot's license) ?
I am in semi agreement with Uriah, there are some great graphics included with MFS, but there also some very poor ones...which considering its recent release is hardly surprising. I was an Alpha/Beta tester and am a GA pilot, with many hours on C152's, C172's, a small number on C182,s and many, many hours on PA-28's. MFS has certainly woken up our hobby and has reached into unknown territory, which is superb. I, personally, am eagerly waiting for LM's response. I have a Xbox game pass, but will probably cancel at the end of this month as many of the systems developers, ie PMDG, A2A, Majestic etc are "holding" off until the MFS SDK issues have been rectified. But I am keeping tabs on MFS and see where it is headed. Either way, this type of competition is fantastic for our hobby.

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Martyson
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby Martyson » Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:47 am

@ choppa ,

Have you flown [MSFS] the Textron Baron G58 G1000, Cessna Citation CJ4 or King Air 350i in various weather conditions using routes with procedures / SID/STAR and ILS/RNAV transitioned approaches?
Did you find them accurate?

Did you get more of an actual real cockpit in flight feeling with the MSFS [2020] on-line real live weather ATC / VFR flight experience than say FSX / payware Wx?

Have you recreated some of your real life flights in MSFS [2020] and how did they compare, generally?
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell (KDTW)

Uriah
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby Uriah » Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:45 am

I agree that competition is good, but this is so X-Box it hurts. Now with me being so anti MSFS2020 with the problems we have all encountered I have spent very little time actually flying. I did a flight in the Cessna 182 or 172 from Monument valley (UT25) to Bryce Canyon (KBCE) .......was flying along happily in autopilot and when it came to landing and taking the aircraft out of autopilot the plane went absolutely crazy and crashed into the ground. This has never happened to me in 25 years of doing Flight Simulator. I also asked the question how does one open the doors to the aircraft........reply.....you cant. Brilliant is'nt it. Listen I like P3D and I have been extremely critical at times and voiced my opinion, but P3D has never been this bad as MSFS2020 is. All the hype which went with MSFS2020 and this is the rubbish we got. Last but not least....all these years of developing MSFS2020 and this is what we got.

@choppa
I did purchase MSFS2020 which was a mistake.
Real world pilot - NO but nearly was. Got too expensive and I wanted to own my own aircraft which I could not afford, so wanted to and was going to buy a Microlight but my wife and daughters went crazy when they found out the amount of deaths in microlighting so that was that, and so bought a brand new Lexus instead.

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Martyson
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby Martyson » Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:03 am

@ Uriah ,

"I did purchase MSFS2020 which was a mistake."

Did you get a refund?
I seen in the forum it is possible.

I only have MSFS [2020] now version 1930 for 2 weeks.
Took several days to get to know how to get around the interface and I have asked a few questions (all answered) on their forum.
I have only flown a few of the planes Baron58, CJ4, Cessna Longitude but all flights were enjoyable and the avionics accurate.
Real world on-line Wx was a real plus for me.

Like Xplane 11, P3Dv4 and P3Dv5 I will be keeping MSFS [2020] and I am looking forward to later flying PMDG737NGXu in MSFS [2020].

Thanks for your reply and sharing your personal flying experience.
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell (KDTW)

choppa
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby choppa » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:09 pm

@ choppa ,

Have you flown [MSFS] the Textron Baron G58 G1000, Cessna Citation CJ4 or King Air 350i in various weather conditions using routes with procedures / SID/STAR and ILS/RNAV transitioned approaches?
Did you find them accurate?

Did you get more of an actual real cockpit in flight feeling with the MSFS [2020] on-line real live weather ATC / VFR flight experience than say FSX / payware Wx?

Have you recreated some of your real life flights in MSFS [2020] and how did they compare, generally?
Sounds as though you may be looking for an argument..hopefully not. The only planes I have I have flown in the basic version are the C152 and C172 (in the real world). I tried the C172 on a trip around SE Tasmania...the handling was fair...but the throttle and mixture were out by about 25%. the C152 stalls were basic...she tends to snap left (wing drop) a few seconds after the stall warning sounds...this is in a landing configuration. I am a VFR GA pilot therefore I can not answer your second question. May I ask how did your experience in MFS compare to real life in the Citation and KIng Air.?..sounds as though you definitely know how they handle in the real world.

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Martyson
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby Martyson » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:18 pm

@ choppa ,

You had mentioned:
"I was an Alpha/Beta tester and am a GA pilot, with many hours on C152's, C172's, a small number on C182,s and many, many hours on PA-28's."

My question was just asking if you had flown the other aircraft.

I do not have any real life experience in them but I had flown them in MSFS [2020] with good results.

Thanks for your reply and sharing you experiences.
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell (KDTW)

choppa
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby choppa » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:13 pm

@ choppa ,

You had mentioned:
"I was an Alpha/Beta tester and am a GA pilot, with many hours on C152's, C172's, a small number on C182,s and many, many hours on PA-28's."

My question was just asking if you had flown the other aircraft.

I do not have any real life experience in them but I had flown them in MSFS [2020] with good results.

Thanks for your reply and sharing you experiences.
Fair enough...I tend to migrate to aircraft that I have flown in real life just to keep my motor skills fluid, especially when I can't get into the real skies, for whatever reason. So I look for realistic systems in modeled products and have found that A2A hits the nail on the head as far as I am concerned. In regard to MFS, their aircraft are obviously default, and I was not expecting a study level experience, as these will be provided by 3rd party developers over time. Considering they are default, they aren't too bad in the systems department, most I have found need fine tuning, such as throttle, mixture prop etc settings. But no, I haven't tried any of the larger models in MFS, probably will do overtime I am sure, as MFS matures. That is why I stick to P3D 95+% of the time, purely for the model accuracy.

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Martyson
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Re: P3D vs MS2020

Postby Martyson » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:44 pm

@ choppa ,

You had mentioned:
"I was an Alpha/Beta tester and am a GA pilot, with many hours on C152's, C172's, a small number on C182,s and many, many hours on PA-28's."

My question was just asking if you had flown the other aircraft.

I do not have any real life experience in them but I had flown them in MSFS [2020] with good results.

Thanks for your reply and sharing you experiences.
Fair enough...I tend to migrate to aircraft that I have flown in real life just to keep my motor skills fluid, especially when I can't get into the real skies, for whatever reason. So I look for realistic systems in modeled products and have found that A2A hits the nail on the head as far as I am concerned. In regard to MFS, their aircraft are obviously default, and I was not expecting a study level experience, as these will be provided by 3rd party developers over time. Considering they are default, they aren't too bad in the systems department, most I have found need fine tuning, such as throttle, mixture prop etc settings. But no, I haven't tried any of the larger models in MFS, probably will do overtime I am sure, as MFS matures. That is why I stick to P3D 95+% of the time, purely for the model accuracy.
@ choppa ,

Thanks for the additional follow up on real life flights and MSFS experience.

Earlier I had asked because you were a MSFS beta tester:
Have you flown [MSFS] the Textron Baron G58 G1000, Cessna Citation CJ4 or King Air 350i in various weather conditions using routes with procedures / SID/STAR and ILS/RNAV transitioned approaches?
Did you find them accurate?

I figured you may have tried some of the other aircraft but I was not in any beta testing so did not even know which aircraft might have been available to you in beta program.
I I just asked.


Here you just recently mentioned mentioned:
https://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopi ... 2&t=139805
“Mind you, V4.5 is still sitting on one of my SSD's...just in case.... and I still use V4 for my PMDG 737NGX.”

I do also keep P3Dv4 and PMDG products.

I also fly the PMDG737 and it has procedures (SID/STAR/Approaches) but I cannot test the tube-liners in MSFS because I do not have any sim training in them.

I did fly the MSFS Baron (and other aircraft) and it (and others) had all procedures and flew them well, I was impressed.
So, that is why I was asking more questions.

Note:
I noticed the MSFS Cessna 172S has a glass cockpit but I have not checked it out to see if it loads procedures or not for IFR training flight.

Yes on 3rd party developers. I already paid the initial fee for the PMDG737NGXu for MSFS [2020] but that looks loke many months away before delivery.
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell (KDTW)


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