Invisible Object during Flare

Other problems or issues not covered by other troubleshooting topics.
TheFl4me
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:52 pm

Invisible Object during Flare

Postby TheFl4me » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:13 pm

Hi, I recently noticed that at certain airports with different elevation such as airports on a coastline (KSFO) or on a “plateau“ (ELLX) and you are using a mesh resolution of <19m (5m, 2m, 1m) you will „hit“ invisible ground at approx 50ft AGL when landing and you will be teleported/slammed on the ground.
I can reproduce this on command using (including but not limited to) the default scenery KSFO RWY 28L/R.

I use P3d v4.3 the latest version.
Tristan Hancock

JohnDH1977
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Invisible Object during Flare

Postby JohnDH1977 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:49 am

Something similar happend to me the other day too at Heathrow 27R. You sure it wasn't a tailstrike? I kind of got the feeling I botched the landing myself. And with collision detection off so trolls don't crash into me online, I noticed P3d is kind of buggy and glitchy if you happen to mess it up and hit the ground hard anyways.

Not meant to be a cute comment. I just saw your post and I am just wondering if I had the same issue you mention. I did have my mesh set to 5m at the time. I dailed it back to 19 and will check to see if it happens again. But if you say you have the problem at a higher setting, why don't you set it back to a setting where you don't have the problem?

TheFl4me
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: Invisible Object during Flare

Postby TheFl4me » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:49 am

Definitely not a Tailstrike, as mentioned above this wasnt a „one time event“ i can reproduce this bug at will. In the case of KSFO It happens at 50feet agl (that would have to be quite the Angle of Atack for a tail strike at that height, also i confirmed by looking at it unfold from the „spot“
View, my tail is well above and visible ground).

I should also mention that this doesnt happen because of a too shallow approach or something, the bug also occurs while doing an Autolanding and perfectly located on the G/S.

Permanently changing the mesh res isnt an option as many airport addons require a mesh res of At least 5m to function properly.
Tristan Hancock

JohnDH1977
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Invisible Object during Flare

Postby JohnDH1977 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:40 pm

Ok, I hear you. I was just going by my own experience. I am by no means an expert on debugging, but could it possibly be a scenery layering issue? If I am not mistaken airport addons should be higher than other global addon scenery like Ultimate Terrain or stuff like that. Sorry I can not be more helpful but it sounds like some bug with conflicting terrain elevations. I have noticed on my sim that sometimes when I load in it will seem like the plane is floating above the ground, but when I slew and move the plane, as soon as it moves the scenery corrects and all appears normal. P3d seems very buggy so your guess is as good as mine. That's why we're both here. Hope you can get it fixed.

Blue skies and good seperation
John

TheFl4me
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: Invisible Object during Flare

Postby TheFl4me » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:24 am

I apologize if my previous comment seemed aggresive that was not my intent nor is it with this one.
I am just trying to name all the facts and come straight to the point. I appreciate your help.

As mentioned all my tests were run with the default p3d scenery. in the case of KSFO (which from this point on i am going to use as the primary example/testing airport) the nearest addon scenery is KLAX or KSEA so I doubt one of those is interfering.

A few other points I should mention:

- I never had nor will I ever have FTX Vector installed.
- I manually checked my pc for conflicting AFCAD files (there were none).
- I do not have any "city scenery" or anything similar installed, I repeat I used the raw default KSFO scenery to test this.

I would really appreciate if a p3d staff member could take the time and respond to this, I have seen multiple posts on forums about this issue, I am not an isolated incident.

EDIT:

Justt to prove that this seems to be a bug deep within the code of p3d/fsx here is a post from a different forum from 2011 (!!)

Also I might add that his "solution" isnt really a solution but more like applying a bandaid on a stab wound. Most addon sceneries require a mesh res of <5m or they wont work.

Image
Tristan Hancock

TheFl4me
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: Invisible Object during Flare

Postby TheFl4me » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:27 pm

Its been a week, ~300views later and yet still no response from any kind of P3d staff member?
Tristan Hancock

Martyson
Posts: 5681
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:08 am

Re: Invisible Object during Flare

Postby Martyson » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:44 pm

Hi, I recently noticed that at certain airports with different elevation such as airports on a coastline (KSFO) or on a “plateau“ (ELLX) and you are using a mesh resolution of <19m (5m, 2m, 1m) you will „hit“ invisible ground at approx 50ft AGL when landing and you will be teleported/slammed on the ground.
I can reproduce this on command using (including but not limited to) the default scenery KSFO RWY 28L/R.

I use P3d v4.3 the latest version.
I have Orbx Global and a few Orbx airports.

I just tested ELLX.
My default P3Dv4.3 Mesh resolution is 2m
No problems.

Normal ILS aaproach and landing.

Note:
I use FlightBeam KSFO and have had no problems there.
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell (KDTW)

TheFl4me
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: Invisible Object during Flare

Postby TheFl4me » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:14 pm

Before I go on this is what ive learned about this bug:

This issue seems to arrise whenever you overfly a sharp terrain change (no matter how small of a change). for example in the case of SFO u instantly go from flying over a flat water surface to a slightly elevated terrain platform. now the more you elvate your mesh resolution the more gradual that change in surface becomes until the difference in elevation between the 2 surfaces is blurry. Here is a screesnhto of what I mean:

FYI: In these images I have an addon scenery installed but it was raw default scenery during testing.

In this image my mesh res is 2m, as you can see there is a sharp difference between the water and terrain.
As soon as i fly above that edge i will be slammed to the ground.
Image

In this image I augmented my mesh res to 19m (everything under that and its still a relatively sharp edge)
When i overflew this (multiple times, trust me) nothing happend and I landed normally.
Image


It seems to me that somehow these sharp edges are generating an invisble terrain/wall whatever you want to call it, which my plane flys into on approach. and with a low enough mesh res they are no longer generated and everything is fine.

Now in your case with ELLX its a bit different but the same principal, I dont fly often into ELLX so I so far only tested that airport with an addon scenery. And In this addon scenery there is a slight terrain change right before RWY 06 which causes the same effect as in KSFO.

My guess is that you did not experience this because you likely use a different scenery or default scenery that does not have that little grove infront of 06.

Im not sure if you can recognize it in the picture but there is a grove of sorts, and again the second I overfly that im slammed into the ground.
I have to reduce my resh mes until that grove disappears if i want to land normally (i dont consider that a fix)
Image

From what Ive experienced having addon scenery or default scenery has no affect (as long as you make sure that u dont have any conflicting afcads etc) and this seems to be a mistake in how p3d handles its terrain collision.

Again, It would be nice if a p3d staff member could acknowledge my issue.
Last edited by TheFl4me on Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Tristan Hancock

User avatar
downscc
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Location: KCRP

Re: Invisible Object during Flare

Postby downscc » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:17 pm

This problem has been around for years. KSFO is a good one to find it at because the water/ground boundary is so close to the end of rwy 28R. For most the solution is to find a mesh resolution that works.

I am using Pilot's addon mesh and Orbx NCA with Flightbeam KSFO and have never had this problem myself (I always use a mesh 5m or smaller), but I have seen it discussed in a variety of forums. I know it can be reproduced and not everyone experiences the problem and that it usually has to do with the water/ground boundary. Hope this helps.

By the way, using a higher resolution mesh is recommended. There is no performance penalty that I'm aware of. There are some scenery addon's that recommend a specific mesh.
Dan Downs
KCRP

TheFl4me
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: Invisible Object during Flare

Postby TheFl4me » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:25 pm

This problem has been around for years. KSFO is a good one to find it at because the water/ground boundary is so close to the end of rwy 28R. For most the solution is to find a mesh resolution that works.

I am using Pilot's addon mesh and Orbx NCA with Flightbeam KSFO and have never had this problem myself (I always use a mesh 5m or smaller), but I have seen it discussed in a variety of forums. I know it can be reproduced and not everyone experiences the problem and that it usually has to do with the water/ground boundary. Hope this helps.

By the way, using a higher resolution mesh is recommended. There is no performance penalty that I'm aware of. There are some scenery addon's that recommend a specific mesh.
Thank you very much for your input Dan, yes from what Ive seen online this issue dates back to at leats 2011. Which i believe makes this whole thing even more absurd since I would think that 7 years is enough time for a company to apply a fix.
It is my opinion that having to change my mesh resolution is not a fix since most airports nowadays require a mesh res of 5 or below otherwise you have to deal with a multitude of other bugs.
Tristan Hancock

TheFl4me
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: Invisible Object during Flare

Postby TheFl4me » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:40 pm

Hi, I recently noticed that at certain airports with different elevation such as airports on a coastline (KSFO) or on a “plateau“ (ELLX) and you are using a mesh resolution of <19m (5m, 2m, 1m) you will „hit“ invisible ground at approx 50ft AGL when landing and you will be teleported/slammed on the ground.
I can reproduce this on command using (including but not limited to) the default scenery KSFO RWY 28L/R.

I use P3d v4.3 the latest version.
I have Orbx Global and a few Orbx airports.

I just tested ELLX.
My default P3Dv4.3 Mesh resolution is 2m
No problems.

Normal ILS aaproach and landing.

Note:
I use FlightBeam KSFO and have had no problems there.
May I ask what kind of aircraft you used for this approach? and if your are 100% sure that you were not even slightly too high on the glideslope?
Tristan Hancock

Martyson
Posts: 5681
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:08 am

Re: Invisible Object during Flare

Postby Martyson » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:48 pm

"May I ask what kind of aircraft you used for this approach? and if your are 100% sure that you were not even slightly too high on the glideslope?"

Your original post did not mention approach using ILS/glide slope or specific recreation steps.


The approach/landing at ELLX RW06 (P3Dv4.3 default scenery) was in the Alabeo PA31 350 Chieftain.
No problems on approach / landing.

I normally disconnect the autopilot a few miles out and then land visually.

In the case of ELLX, IMO, LM has nothing to fix.

Have you contacted your add-on freeware/payware scenery developer support?

Image
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell (KDTW)

TheFl4me
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: Invisible Object during Flare

Postby TheFl4me » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:58 pm

"May I ask what kind of aircraft you used for this approach? and if your are 100% sure that you were not even slightly too high on the glideslope?"

Your original post did not mention approach using ILS/glide slope or specific recreation steps.


The approach/landing at ELLX RW06 (P3Dv4.3 default scenery) was in the Alabeo PA31 350 Chieftain.
No problems on approach / landing.

I normally disconnect the autopilot a few miles out and then landing visually.

In the case of ELLX, IMO, LM has nothing to fix.

Have you contacted your add-on freeware/payware scenery developer support?

Image
HI Martyson, yes I am just trying to troubleshoot, also sorry for not specifying but I ment KSFO in my question not ELLX thats my bad. Because as I mentioned before the reason ELLX works fine for you is because the default scenery doesnt have that grove infront of RWY 06 so it wont affect you.

I am more focused on KSFO because it is affected by all sceneries no matter if default or addon. (as I mentioned at first I did test KSFO with raw default scenery)
FYI I did infact at first contact FLightbeam because I thought it was their fault at first but we were able to figure out that this was a p3d bug not Flightbeams.

Now as too why I asked you for aircraft and ils:

this "invisible wall" does have a hightlimit, my guess is that since you seem to be using a small aircraft (compared to me who prefers airliners) you are able to overfly this wall. and the ILS was just to make sure that you were on the same altitude as me as too not overfly the "wall".

I would really be curious as to what would happen if you fly with a larger aircraft into KSFO on your sim
Tristan Hancock

Martyson
Posts: 5681
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:08 am

Re: Invisible Object during Flare

Postby Martyson » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:35 pm

KSFO-FlightBeam/Orbx-Global-ILS28R-APR-test P3Dv4.3 ok.

https://youtu.be/E14u1pTUOxQ
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell (KDTW)

TheFl4me
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: Invisible Object during Flare

Postby TheFl4me » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:05 am

KSFO-FlightBeam/Orbx-Global-ILS28R-APR-test P3Dv4.3 ok.

https://youtu.be/E14u1pTUOxQ
Strange I was able to land with the Raptor aswell just now, I assumed that it did not have anything to do with addon aircraft since it happens to all my addon aircraft no matter from which developer (pmdg/qualitywings/fslabs...)

Do u perhaps have access to a pmdg/qw/fslabs aircraft? and if so could u do the same approach into SFO again?
Tristan Hancock


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