4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

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mikced
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4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby mikced » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:49 pm

No ATC/AI update this time either.

- No update to the airspace and navigation database (its from 2006!!).
- No update to AI Aircraft. AI still cant use sloped runways.
- No update to the ATC. Controllers send you back and forth on IFR approach. People have been compaining about this for years. NO SID/STARS

Mike

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Rob McCarthy
Lockheed Martin
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Re: 4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby Rob McCarthy » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:13 pm

Mike,

Thanks for your feedback. Point releases focus on hitting incremental improvements and allow us to provide necessary updates to our users and developers. Still, your bullet points are definitely things we are aware of and we will continue to look for opportunities to improve on those areas. Do you have more details on your "back and forth on IFR approach" comment? Do you have an example?

Regards,
Rob McCarthy
Rob McCarthy
Prepar3D® Core Lead

funkyaz77
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Re: 4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby funkyaz77 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:41 am

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your response to someone in the community. I would add though PBR was quite a major move for a point release and well received and well done by you. Also there is X Plane an entertainment relase which for point releases makes quite major changes i.e Flight Dynamic changes and for 10.30 a point release changed from 32bit to 64bit.

It would be great if Lockheed Martin could add more advance features into point releases. You have already proved that by adding PBR you can still acheive your goal of "maintaining compatibility" although im sure the community would rather you break it completely and completely overhaul stuff. We all want you to succeed and do better things in the sim i.e ground handling, drag models and flight dynamics for jet and prop planes . It sometimes feel like Prepar3d is slowly getting left behind non training related software.

So looking forward to seeing you improve ATC and AI and the World in general!

Blessings

Duncan Odgers
Mike,

Thanks for your feedback. Point releases focus on hitting incremental improvements and allow us to provide necessary updates to our users and developers. Still, your bullet points are definitely things we are aware of and we will continue to look for opportunities to improve on those areas. Do you have more details on your "back and forth on IFR approach" comment? Do you have an example?

Regards,
Rob McCarthy

mikced
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Re: 4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby mikced » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:42 am

Hi Rob

Thank you for taking the time to read my feedback and for your answer. I think every PC pilot having used Microsft Flight Simulator and/or Prepar3D since the early days flying IFR under default ATC can witness this problems on IFR flights. While on approach (and this is not on a few instances but every time) the controller under vectoring will send you in one direction and a few seconds later send you in another and then this goes on and on. Ultimately you will get to your destination but after about 30 nagging turn commands from ATC.

Having familiarized myself with the defaukt ATC over many years I really think you have a little grand jewel here. It has such enormous potential and since no other addon communicates with AI Aircraft the way the default ATC does its a shame not more people use it. But in its present state I kind of understand why. Here are just a few suggestions to make it better:

- Update the nav data (its from 2006)
- Add support for SID/STAR departures and arrivals
- Support for sloped runways for AI Aircraft
- The turn problem on approach back and forth on radar vectoring as described above
- I update many of my airports with 3rd party AFX editors and when creating taxi links it would be nice if you can control taxing directions. Today if I create a taxi link an AI aircraft can go in either direction on it and there is nothing I can do about it.
- And of course the biggest wish of them all. The possibility to communicate with ATC using voice commands rather than key commands., speech recognition!

Mike

pracines
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Re: 4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby pracines » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:07 am

No doubt, the useless and sometime endless vectors that the default ATC gives IFR flights is very much a long standing issue. Its like the ATC needs one to be on an absolutely perfect course line. Turn left heading 145...turn right heading 165....turn left heading 150....turn right heading 160...it gets old fast. If that expectation can be widened it could possibly solve the issue. Maybe the ATC needs to account for wind better too.

-If worldwide transition alt/lvl's could be added that would be great.
-If more realistic and expanded VFR services could be added that would be great.

We could ask for a host of ATC features, but the AI planes need to be smarter too. Don't even get me started on tower and ground controllers. :-)
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Rob McCarthy
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Re: 4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby Rob McCarthy » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:18 pm

Hey Everyone,

Thanks for the additional details. pracines can you expand on your VFR and tower/ground controllers comments. Are there any specific details/issues you are running into that we could improve on?

Regards,
Rob McCarthy
Rob McCarthy
Prepar3D® Core Lead

shermank
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Re: 4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby shermank » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:33 pm

IN re ATC zig zags, I suggest the payware add on PF3

https://www.oncourse-software.co.uk/pf3_details.htm

there are still a few problems, but as a non professional simmer, it works fine for me.

Sherm

mikced
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Re: 4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby mikced » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:00 pm

PF3 is an alternative like so many others but we are talking default here. Its the only option that works fully with AI. As for PF3 I have to say its one of the weaker offerings. Too scripted for my taste and what good is an ATC systems that only communicate with you and not the surrounding aircraft. That kind of defeats the fundamental purpose of ATC in the first place 😀

pracines
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Re: 4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby pracines » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:59 am

Hey Everyone,

Thanks for the additional details. pracines can you expand on your VFR and tower/ground controllers comments. Are there any specific details/issues you are running into that we could improve on?

Regards,
Rob McCarthy
Hi Rob,

Thank you to you and the P3D team for the recent release of 4.5 - its running fine for me. I eagerly look forward to future releases of P3D!

Here are a few specifics:

VFR

The current VFR flight following consists of traffic calls alone. If P3D could add some vectoring to final, in other words, be more aware of a VFR flight plan, that could help. Handoffs from Approach/Center to towers/Unicom would be useful as well. This could help VFR flight to be a bit more challenging /appealing.

Tower/Ground

Tower controllers need to be able to command speed, side steps, and altering runways to aircraft on approach to landing. AI planes need to be able to accommodate. The lack of these commands adds to inefficiency and a lack of realism.

Runway changes due to wind, need to be "coordinated" with approach and ground controllers ahead of time if possible. When the runways do change at busy airports, there is always direct conflicts of planes landing and taking off directly into each other for a few minutes until things "catch up"/settle into the new situation.

Tower/Ground controllers and AI planes need to be more aware of taxiway/ramp/terminal layouts in order to facilitate a more efficient exit off the runways after landing. A specific is San Diego (KSAN) where AI planes that land on runway 27 brake hard and exit at B5 or B6 (too soon for the airport layout). All the while they block taxiway B for AI taxiing from the terminal area to runway 27 for takeoff. If the AI landing could be commanded to exit at the end on taxiway B10 and at the same time keep the speed up to the end (don't jam on the brakes and then taxi 20 knots down the runway).

After AI/user planes land there should be (when safe/appropriate) a "line up and wait" command given to AI/user planes waiting to takeoff. This would add to efficiency and realism.

Ground controllers need to be more aware that AI airplanes take precedence over AI ground vehicles. The ground stops for a fuel truck coming from a mile away (at a large airport) can be very unrealistic to say the least. It may be better to make the fuel truck wait, because its better to have planes stuck at a gate than to clog up taxiways. Many of us are simply forced to totally remove AI ground vehicles because of the ground conflicts.

A "without delay" command should be implemented for tower controllers to facilitate busy times. AI need to be more aware how busy an airport is. There are so many go arounds at major airports that could be avoided if the AI planes would just takeoff without delay. Currently the AI planes at all airports, behave as though that are lining up on a steam cable launching system before they finally throttle up a go. This lining up takes an eternity when there is a string of planes landing....every other plane has to go around.

I could go further, but these specifics would be a good start. If something can be done with these specifics, then we will go deeper. If these specifics are not possible, then the others would not matter so much.

For a more complete understanding of my specific situation here is a list of the add-ons I use to try and help my realism situation. I don't think my situation is not unlike many other P3D users, but for some perspective:

--- I use Alpha India Group "One Click Install" AI traffic. I set my AI (Both Airline & GA) to 100% as I like a busy/realistic/stressful environment.

---I use Super Traffic Board to view and manage AI traffic schedules and movements. This utility helps to keep AI planes on approach to a runway, spaced far enough apart, so as to avoid constant/excessive go-arounds. The issue with this is that STB deletes AI aircraft to do this. Then they eventually spawn at gates suddenly. It helps to fix one issue and causes another less obvious issue.

---I use Radar Contact 4.3 for IFR ATC primarily because it can accept complex professional flight plans, and gives us the freedom to alter runways, change approach/departure routes if needed. It also has a world wide Transition Altitude/Level database. It also has sensible vectors to approach course. The problem with RC 4.3 is that ground control does not give specific taxi routes, we have to make our own way and hope P3D ground controllers don't cause our path to be blocked. Also, RC 4.3 ATC relies on our knowledge of the lack of sophistication in the P3D ATC system. For example, the slower AI plane landing in front of us is not going to side step, so we have to, or we have to land on another runway, or even go around to avoid a conflict. Once RC 4.3 is started the P3D ATC system is not available to us or aware of us, RC4.3 is aware of AI planes, but it means we pilots are the ATC system almost as much as RC 4.3.

In summary

My theory is that if the "artificial intelligence" of P3D ATC & AI planes can be improved, then add-on ATC products can go even further, but my hope is P3D ATC/AI will be sufficient for most professional users. Currently, add-on ATC products have a difficult time pushing the realism limits any further, because of the limits of ATC & AI planes and the lack of artificial intelligence (allowing ATC/AI to make better decisions based on a busy dynamic environment).
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Martyson
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Re: 4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby Martyson » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:23 pm

Just to verify:
"I use Radar Contact 4.3 for IFR ATC primarily because it can accept complex professional flight plans, and gives us the freedom to alter runways, change approach/departure routes if needed. It also has a world wide Transition "

I had read Radar contact is now freeware / no longer supported by the developer.
Is that correct?

If not supported / approved for the current version of P3Dv4.5 that could cause issues.
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell (KDTW)

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Psybear
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Re: 4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby Psybear » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:26 pm

Couldn't agree more with the gist of this default ATC thread. Long, long overdue. Please allocate some time to at least throw us a bone... like updating the airspace and navigation database for a start. Thanks for giving it some thought.

Clayton
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MichaelH
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Re: 4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby MichaelH » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:25 pm

Hi all,
it would be great if you could consider some of the following features/changes:

(1) AI planes shouldn't block runways as long as in the current version: faster takeoffs, line-ups and faster leaving of runway
(2) Usage of cross-wind runways (for example runway 18 at EDDF)
(3) Push-back requests to Ground controller
(4) Improvement of vectoring (as already explained in this thread)
(5) ATC should give new altitude clearances before reaching the former cleared altitude, if traffic allows, so that you don't have to interrupt climb or descent
(6) You should be able to request directs from ATC (for example to a waypoint within the current sector) or be offered directs from time to time by ATC (if they make sense)
(7) ATC should be aware of SIDs and STARs and AI aircraft should also use them
(8) Speed control of AI and user planes for separation (especially on final approach)
(9) Implementation of Datalink?
(10) Better load balancing between runways for departures and landings
(11) Holdings if traffic is too dense
(12) Different transition altitudes/levels

I think that 1, 2, 5, 6 and 12 should be comparatively easy to implement and would help a lot to improve immersion and realism.

By the way, thank you for all the effort you put into Prepar3D so far! We have come a long way since the FSX days and it would be great, if ATC and AI could be improved a bit in P3D v5 :)

Michael

IanHarr
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Re: 4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby IanHarr » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:48 pm

"I had read Radar contact is now freeware / no longer supported by the developer.
Is that correct?"
You are correct in that RC is now freeware.
As regards support, it depends what support you mean.
There will be no development or improvement of the program but support is freely available on the RC forum at Avsim.

IanHarr
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Re: 4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby IanHarr » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:50 pm

Forgot to mention that the version of P3D is basically immaterial to RC4 as it relies on Simconnect and FSUIPC (unless I am mistaken).

Martyson
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Re: 4.5 update no ATC/AI updates this time either :(

Postby Martyson » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:10 am

"I had read Radar contact is now freeware / no longer supported by the developer.
Is that correct?"
You are correct in that RC is now freeware.
As regards support, it depends what support you mean.
There will be no development or improvement of the program but support is freely available on the RC forum at Avsim.
Is the developer providing support for its product and is it approved for P3Dv4.5?
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell (KDTW)


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