WAVE and Water Size in V5

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CoastalDriver
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WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by CoastalDriver »

After close examination it is apparent that the coefficients used in V5 that determine water movement (waves) are too high or excessive.

If I place a vehicle on the water (say an amphibian flying vehicle on floats) with the weather preset and the wind set at 0 knots the water should be flat and not moving at all but in the sim there are small constant rolling waves constantly which I would say is the equivalent to a 10 knot breeze on the water.

Where this becomes impossible is if one applies wind as a factor lets say I now set the surface level wind to 15 knots of wind - the water will now generate medium size waves the equivalent of about a 1 to 1.5 metre swell. So the factor of increase is about 3.

A 20 knot wind generates huge rolling waves which are impossible to operate on or off if you use an amphibian vehicle.

I can see no means of controlling this. I note there is a wave motion xml in the P3D user folder but I can find no information as to what constants are used.

Any view or advice how we can get the wave and wind motion in alignment - that is no wind no waves (a best a ripple) and tiny waves up to about 5 knots etc.
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Martyson
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Re: WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by Martyson »

CoastalDriver wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:13 am After close examination it is apparent that the coefficients used in V5 that determine water movement (waves) are too high or excessive.

If I place a vehicle on the water (say an amphibian flying vehicle on floats) with the weather preset and the wind set at 0 knots the water should be flat and not moving at all but in the sim there are small constant rolling waves constantly which I would say is the equivalent to a 10 knot breeze on the water.

Where this becomes impossible is if one applies wind as a factor lets say I now set the surface level wind to 15 knots of wind - the water will now generate medium size waves the equivalent of about a 1 to 1.5 metre swell. So the factor of increase is about 3.

A 20 knot wind generates huge rolling waves which are impossible to operate on or off if you use an amphibian vehicle.

I can see no means of controlling this. I note there is a wave motion xml in the P3D user folder but I can find no information as to what constants are used.

Any view or advice how we can get the wave and wind motion in alignment - that is no wind no waves (a best a ripple) and tiny waves up to about 5 knots etc.
@ CoastalDriver ,

Is there a problem with the vehicle on the water?
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell PP-ASEL (KDTW)
CoastalDriver
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Re: WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by CoastalDriver »

Yes - sure is. IF real weather is used and even if the wind is only about 15 knots the waves become so large that you cannot build up take off speed in a flying boat, the aircraft starts to plane properly but is constantly being bounced badly by the chop and the waves and therefore is losing flying speed and momentum to the point of loss of control and or complete failure to attain take off speed.

I have also applied the contact point switch [ ignore_waves=1] but this does not help the key problem the waves generated are grossly oversized for the wind speed. Even in nil wind their is a light rolling swell.

I did manage to keep control on one test run off the coast in a large bay area - it took the equivalent of nearly 5 nm to get airborne. Now this is the reverse behaviour to what is expected with a flying boat. A smooth glassy water surface increases the take off run and a slight chop decreases the take off run. But a large and heavy chop effectively kills forward momentum significantly. Note the waves are choppy so in real wind on the water a swell line will build up large waves in a constant line with a constant direction. You can operate under these extreme conditions due to the swell line and constant wave direction but the simulator does not produce swell lines only chopped waves! What sailors call a crossed sea!

The model used was a Short Sunderland, this is a large 4 engined flying boat of about 65000 lb take off weight. I have also tried varying the contact points to see if the wave motion could be overcome but it did not help at all. As a matter of interest in these waves the aircraft rolls about in a very unatural manner as well while stationary at its mooring area.
CoastalDriver
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Re: WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by CoastalDriver »

For flying boat or amphibian simulation - effectively you have to use preset calm weather to keep the sea state or water state reasonable. Then there is no issue with the behaviour and take off or landing of these type of aircraft.

It is when real time weather and wind is applied that the combination becomes unacceptable! As I said a 15 knot breeze gives me the equivalent of a sea state 6 ( or very large crossed waves) with no constant wave line or wave formation in front of the wind direction which is what happens with a constant wind in real life.
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Martyson
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Re: WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by Martyson »

@ CoastalDriver ,

Which developer's flying boat?
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell PP-ASEL (KDTW)
CoastalDriver
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Re: WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by CoastalDriver »

Since you ask JBK was the developer - a large collection of Short Flying Boats from the S5 to the S45. All were FSX native conversions and all have ported into P3D with appropriate some 64 bit guage updates. The original modelling and design was very good. They all worked perfectly in FSX and then in V5.1. I also use simulator models by Flight Replicas (Piper Cub Amphibian) Aerosoft (PBY Catalina and the Twin Otter-Floats) and the Milviz (Beaver and Otter)Virtavias Grumman HU16 and a number of others (Schupe Mallards, FSF Grummans, Russian Beriev's) and two excellent conversions of FSX GRumman G21 and C172 on floats.

With respect to the JBK models, I and a small team of modellers have updated them all and vigorously tested them against the original aircraft data and flgiht test reports.

Note that there are separate conversions of the same JBK models also available publicly via SimAviation with adjustments to the planing and contact behaviour for those models which no longer work now correctly in V5.2 ( These models are stuck in the water and refuse to move even at max power application). The same things is now experienced with a Russian model of the Beriev 6.

We also now experience considerable resistance (or drag) when on the water requiring considerably more power with the new wave motion!

So something has been altered with respect to the way the water/waves are generated or work and the relationship of a vehicle on that surface in 5.2 v 5.1 and since the Hotfix!

Please note I have an extensive collection of simulator modelled flying boats (Probably all that were ever done) and amphibians. I have been using these in simulation now for over a decade and a half. I note that this contact issue is more prevalent with deep hull flying boats and less so with float planes!
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Martyson
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Re: WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by Martyson »

@ CoastalDriver ,

Which boat has been tested and approved by the developer for P3Dv5.2HF1 (payware?)?
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell PP-ASEL (KDTW)
CoastalDriver
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Re: WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by CoastalDriver »

All the models fly correctly and normally as aircraft in P3DV5.2 - that is is not the issue it is the behaviour and performance of all the model now on the simulated water and waves that is now the problem.

I suspect that the relationship between contact points to represent a floating body for a flying boat or amphibian that held in FSX (A) and in earlier versions of P3D is now altered by the simulation of waves and water in the sim! The drag has increased and the speed (hence power) to move the vehicle is now higher which suggests a change between the relationship in the sim engine between a model vehicle and the simulated water surface area!
CoastalDriver
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Re: WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by CoastalDriver »

Comparison screen shots - the wave actions is variable but generally like this
This is nil wind standard water and waves not that it is not flat or glassy but has small waves evident.
Image

This is with real weather and only a 10 knot wind see the difference now in the size of the waves 15 knots gives you an even large wave/swell.
Image
CoastalDriver
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Re: WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by CoastalDriver »

The bottom shot of the Otter in 10 kt wind illustrates better, note that the left float is being submerged and the right one is out of the water more whic of course does not show the rocking and rolling of the vehicle.
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Martyson
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Re: WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by Martyson »

@ CoastalDriver ,


I fly Aerosoft DHC6 Amphibian in P3Dv4.5HF3

I would like to purchase a boat for P3Dv5.2HF1:

Which boat has been tested and approved by the developer for P3Dv5.2HF1 (payware?)?
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell PP-ASEL (KDTW)
CoastalDriver
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Re: WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by CoastalDriver »

Martyson - off topic but I can give you and other users a comprehensive list of these type of vehicles.

I have been involved with payware developers and working with sim variables and SDK's with float planes and flying boats since the first days of FSX. P3DV5.2 is now my sim of choice now and in the future it is overall an excellent program for flight simulation. I don't do 3D modelling only gauges and power plant and flight dynamics.

Now as far as I am aware there is only one payware model that has been upgraded or released specifically for P3DV5 - that is the Fysimware Grumman Widgeon. There is a Shinmaywa US-2 in the works with Team KBT in Japan for P3D. Milviz are about to issue upgrades for their Otter and Beaver (already fixed by me for my use anyway).

Other non V5 but payware flying boat/amphibians are:

The payware Milviz Otter and Beaver are V4.5 but work fine in V5.2 with the MILVIZ xml installer fix to correct the gauge installation issues.
The payware Aerosoft PBY which was originally FSX - works perfectly in V5 without any issues. Usual installer problems that is all!
The payware Aerosoft Twin Otter (Floats 00 and 300) also installed into V5 and work without any issues.
The FSX Payware Virtavia HU-16 also installed into V5 and works without issues.

The remainder for you and other and they are all freeware they are:

JBK Short S5, S8, S23, S25, S30, S42 and S45 all FSX and/or updated and the conversions/updates are availabe at some sim sites also worked in V5.
Sim.RU's Beriev's BE6 and Be 12 also freeware and upadated also workd fine in V5.
A float conversion of the FSX C172 by AF Scrub also works fine in V5.
Milton Schupe's Mallards the Piston and the Turbine also work fine in V5.
George Diemers FSX Sikorsky S42, S43 and S44 also all work fine in V5.
An older Golden Age simulations DH60 on floats also works fine in V5.
The RFN Group in France also have produced several early French float plane the Loire 210 this is specifically for V5 and works beautifully as well.

I have not tried any of the Carenado float planes - they are all P3DV4.5 or FSX. Nor the Virtavia Tradewinds.
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JorgenSA
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Re: WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by JorgenSA »

CoastalDriver,

Maybe a bit off topic, but thanks for the list of aircraft. I have been thinking of getting the RFN Loire, now I am going to.

Jorgen
System: i7-7700K@4.66 GHz, ASUS Z170-A motherboard, 16 GB 3200 MHz DDR4 RAM, nVidia GTX 960 w/ 4 GB DDR5 VRAM, Windows 10 Pro.

All views and opinions expressed here are entirely my own. I am not a Lockheed-Martin employee.
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Martyson
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Re: WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by Martyson »

@ CoastalDriver,

Thanks for the follow up.

You mentioned:
"Now as far as I am aware there is only one payware model that has been upgraded or released specifically for P3DV5 - that is the Fysimware Grumman Widgeon. "

There has been no Updates for P3D (any version).
It is a FSX product with an installer for P3D per the current Flysimware manual.

I will wait for float planes designed, tested and supported for P3Dv5.2HF1.

Note:
I have purchased from Flysimware (Learjet 35A and Cessna 441 Conquest) but have not been notified or seen any updates from them for P3Dv5.2HF1 .
Best Regards,
Vaughan Martell PP-ASEL (KDTW)
CoastalDriver
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Re: WAVE and Water Size in V5

Post by CoastalDriver »

On topic - revised assessment re waves and motion in V5.2
The injection of weather (winds) into the simulator is more critical than at first apparent. I do not have a clear understanding of the algorithims used by Active Sky, REX or P3DWX nor of the internal sim engine in P3D that run to generate wind forces but they have a signficant impact on the wave generation.

After numerous test scenarios with vehicles on water and weather injection, It seems the Active Sky (AS) is amplifying wind vectors incorrectly both in direction and force. REX does not seem to do anything AND only P3DWX seems to correctly call wind forces into the sim both horizontally and vertically!.

The ignore_wave=1 switch if applied with large waves or high winds prevents the model from moving with the dynamic waves and hence the model begins to cause the model to impact the moving waves like it is colliding with solid objects when combined with the contact points for a flying boat for example gives the result of trying to drive through the waves which it is impacting with solid objects hence the loss of speed and directional control.

The solution has been to not use AS or REX but at this time only P3DWX for real time weather injection (It also only uses EA and TRUE SKY to generate clouds) and to remove the ignore_waves switch. Behaviour on water returns to normal.

Nil winds are still not perfect in sim but wave motion is within tolerances and appearance acceptable and model vehicle performance also returns to within appropriate parameters (As in real life you cannot hope to fly off or successfully land on the water in 30 kt plus winds)
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