Adding Procedures to Flight Plan

Other problems or issues not covered by other troubleshooting topics.
mathurpc
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Adding Procedures to Flight Plan

Postby mathurpc » Fri May 19, 2017 10:49 pm

Is there a way to add published arrival/departure/approach procedures to the flight plan using the Flight Planner?

Pramod

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WarpD
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Re: Adding Procedures to Flight Plan

Postby WarpD » Sat May 20, 2017 12:20 am

No there is not.

Since procedures can change on the fly due to conditions, they are typically dealt with from within the GNS or FMS while flying.
Ed Wilson
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FSTramp
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Re: Adding Procedures to Flight Plan

Postby FSTramp » Sat May 20, 2017 8:23 am

The new FSTramp upgrade will be completed in the next month. With procedures that are always displayed correctly, procedures can be associate to a flight plan, the missing parts of procedures are automatically supplemented, procedures can be changed in flight, and each flight plan, including associated procedures, can automatically fly from runway to runway.

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WarpD
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Re: Adding Procedures to Flight Plan

Postby WarpD » Sat May 20, 2017 12:16 pm

Considering the actual complexity of how procedural waypoints are defined for auto-flight-control... I would be curious to know how you are dealing with the fact that a great deal of procedural waypoints are not simply a track to a fix?
Ed Wilson
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Mindstar Aviation

mathurpc
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Re: Adding Procedures to Flight Plan

Postby mathurpc » Sat May 20, 2017 2:27 pm

No there is not.

Since procedures can change on the fly due to conditions, they are typically dealt with from within the GNS or FMS while flying.
Yes I am aware of that, but the problem is that any procedures added in GNS, it seems, is not visible to the default ATC in P3D and the default ATC is linked to only the flight plan created using the default Flight Planner. Is there any way around this?

Pramod

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Re: Adding Procedures to Flight Plan

Postby FSTramp » Sat May 20, 2017 7:16 pm

I would be curious to know how you are dealing with the fact that a great deal of procedural waypoints are not simply a track to a fix?
The flight plan contains only the ID of the procedures, not their waypoints. Later, when drawing or flying the flight plan, it is converted into a route. This conversion is only internal and does not change the flight plan.

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WarpD
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Re: Adding Procedures to Flight Plan

Postby WarpD » Sun May 21, 2017 1:21 am

That didn't actually answer the question, but ok.

I was only curious if you had found a way to load complex procedures into the sim from an external database so that the sim would process them correctly.
Ed Wilson
Senior Developer
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MHargrove
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Re: Adding Procedures to Flight Plan

Postby MHargrove » Sun May 21, 2017 2:26 am

I would be curious to know how you are dealing with the fact that a great deal of procedural waypoints are not simply a track to a fix?
The flight plan contains only the ID of the procedures, not their waypoints. Later, when drawing or flying the flight plan, it is converted into a route. This conversion is only internal and does not change the flight plan.

As Ed notes, what you're saying here is not actually possible. You can invent a path for some procedures, but it will not the the "correct" path. Tell me, for example, how you're going to create a flight path for the LAXX NINE SID out of KLAX?

I'm not saying FSTramp isn't an interesting-looking product -- I'm just saying that you can't 'correctly' provide a runway-to-runway path from anywhere to anywhere.
Mark Hargrove
Longmont, CO

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Re: Adding Procedures to Flight Plan

Postby FSTramp » Sun May 21, 2017 8:37 am

From left to right three examples.
KLAX: LOOP9
KLAX: SXC7
NZWR: RNVD

FSTramp invents possible routes. Always. You can use them or listen to the ground control. In the right picture you see a dashed extension of the approach to the runway.

Image

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WarpD
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Re: Adding Procedures to Flight Plan

Postby WarpD » Sun May 21, 2017 5:34 pm

Ok, first I'll state that I only looked at the first two departures. Both of them are vectored departures, as in you take off and fly a defined heading until told to do otherwise.

Regarding LOOP9, you won't be given vectors back to the LAX VOR until you've reached 10,000ft altitude. This is a safety buffer and there's no deviation in that regard. Because of this, the loop would be far more teardrop shaped in a real flight track than an actual cloverleaf circle. However, the big key is that you fly a given heading until ATC tells you otherwise. The sim doesn't support that nor does the default autopilot with flight plans. So, only custom autopilot/flight management code will do this one correctly.

As for SXC7 it's not even allowed for RW24L/R or RW25L/R. It's only allowed for east takeoffs. Then it too is a vectored departure where you maintain a heading until ATC vectors you to fly to the SXC VOR which is on Santa Catalina Island. Your depiction of SXC7 is completely incorrect.

There is a rather expensive document you can purchase that explains all the detailed nuances of procedural waypoints called ARINC 424. It might help you to better depict the procedures.
Ed Wilson
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Re: Adding Procedures to Flight Plan

Postby FSTramp » Sun May 21, 2017 9:11 pm

From the point of view of the pure doctrine of avionics, everything is correct. Unfortunately, this view makes it difficult to use digital procedures without additional information sources on paper or PDF format. A simple straight line for vector procedures has little to say. A analogy similar to the idea behind the procedure is more helpful.

I am not bound to real regulations when developing FSTramp, I also do not claim to create a copy of the real world. This can be done by other developers who create beautiful instruments for the cockpit.

For me, problem-free usability is more important than a 1 to 1 copy of reality. It should work and not make trouble. Not only professional pilots sit in front of the computer.

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WarpD
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Re: Adding Procedures to Flight Plan

Postby WarpD » Sun May 21, 2017 9:59 pm

Someone asked if the departures and arrivals could be inserted into the flight plan... that was the OP.

I was under the impression, based on your response, that you had figured out how to accomplish just that.

You replied:
With procedures that are always displayed correctly, procedures can be associate to a flight plan, the missing parts of procedures are automatically supplemented, procedures can be changed in flight, and each flight plan, including associated procedures, can automatically fly from runway to runway.
So, my apologies for thinking you had come up with accurate flight planning in the sim's flight plan system. At this point, I'll let the OP make their decision as to whether your product does what you claim or not.
Ed Wilson
Senior Developer
Mindstar Aviation


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