Issues: Autogen Vegetation, Framebuffer Blend, Shadowing.

Discussion related to terrain/scenery design.
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29PalmsSD
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Postby 29PalmsSD » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:17 am

Hi there and first of all thank your for bringing flight simulation to the next level! :-)

I recently tested our sceneries in P3D2 and stumbled over multiple issues:



Our project Skiathos comes with custom vegetation autogen which is controlled via the autogendescriptions.spb meaning we added definitions to it.

While autogen buildings controlled via the default.xml work fine, the vegetation doesn't show up. Not with the correct textures. It's there because sometimes it calls a completely different texture used within the project. A tile of the groundpolygon for example. I tried all kinds of material settings without success. The vegetation consists of simple two sided planes per object, double sided within the material and a DXT5 texture with white/black alpha channel. What could cause this problem?

Other objects that use transparency work fine such as shrubs or fences but those aren't controlled via the autogendescriptions.spb.



Second problem is that we tend to control the airport lighting (except for floodlights) using a special framebuffer method. In order to have the halos/lightbulbs of RWY and TWY lights display only at dusk/dawn/night we use a black texture without alpha channel for the diffuse slot and the halo on black background as the night texture. Along with a Framebuffer Blend of Source:One Destination:One, pure black is never visible but at nighttime the halo appears. This technique doesn't seem to be possible in P3D2 anymore, why's that?

And can you think of another technique beside using effects that would make lighting possible only at nighttime?

Here's the effect in FSX (P3D doesn't show the glow):

JSI_P12_09.jpg



Some questions about shadowing:

Can shadows appear above FS2002-style groundpolygons?

Which material settings are required for a building to cast correct shadows?

Do objects have to be 'closed'? (We delete invisible faces in order to increase performance)



Thanks in advance and kind regards,

Lars

29Palms Scenery Design



Best,
Lars

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29PalmsSD
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Postby 29PalmsSD » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:58 pm

Hi there,



like in this thread: http://www.prepar3d.com/forum-5/?mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=3935

my autogen comes back after removing additional placement files for vegetation autogen objects.

Furthermore the blend masks of photosceneries are very harsh, not like in FSX:



P3D_Agn.jpg
Best,
Lars

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Max Perry
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Postby Max Perry » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:54 pm

Thanks for reporting the autogen issues, we are making a list and seeing what's changed. Are the trees in your autogen using both alpha test and source and destination blends for transparency? Tried making it default "opaque" and only using alpha settings for transparency for your trees.



If you have the P3D version of the lights I would be curious too what the differences look like.



Can you post a comparison shot for the blend mask harshness?



I would turn on buildings receiving shadows for ground polygons. Most scenery objects go through buildings except autogen vegetation. I haven't worked with FS2002 polygons (lately), but in our new Z-bias system they are treated as buildings.

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29PalmsSD
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Postby 29PalmsSD » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:46 am

Hi Max, thanks for your reply! I took some screenshots.

Making the trees default opaque doesn't help, they show up as completely black then.



Here's the P3D version of the lights. Has the framebuffer blend changed? Cause the light glow colour seems to blend into the

alpha channel of the concrete base of the lights in the groundpolygon. Why isn't it possible anymore to use the framebuffer blend of

Dest:One, Source:One and get the logical result as described above: Pure black fades against everything.

It's important that I get this to work or a good alternative since a lot of our scenery elements use this technique.

P3D_Issues_01.jpg



Here's the blend mask in FSX. As you can see, it uses a soft edge flow from white to black. This doesn't seem to work anymore in P3D2.

P3D_Issues_02.jpg



Here's an example of the water mask in FSX. The photoscenery details blend in perfectly. I got the impression that

this technique changed as well in P3D2 or is it just the wave animation (water detail set to Ultra).

P3D_Issues_03.jpg



P3D2:

P3D_Issues_04.jpg



P3D_Issues_05.jpg
Best,
Lars

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29PalmsSD
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Postby 29PalmsSD » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:54 am

Here's another interesting example of the material framebuffer blend Src:One - Dest:One behaviour in P3Dv2:



P3D_Issues_06.jpg
Best,
Lars

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Max Perry
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Postby Max Perry » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:18 pm

mind posting your material settings? I have a source one / destination one light like material as well. It's 2 one sided polygons with the double sided material option.


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29PalmsSD
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Postby 29PalmsSD » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:38 am

Hi Max,



no I don't mind :-) I don't use the 2 sided option, I duplicated and flipped the normals of the polygons in the model, also resulting in a 2 sided material.

Could that be the problem? Not entirely I guess since the blending of the one sided polygon above the ground is odd as well.



P3D_Issues_07.jpg
Best,
Lars

pierrot78
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Postby pierrot78 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:20 am

I've the same problem (photoscenery blending) see here http://www.prepar3d.com/forum-5/?mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=4425.0#postid-20363

danchircop
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Postby danchircop » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:14 pm

Hi all I ported over my imagery into P3D and checked if I'm getting the same blending problems. Strangely enough I'm not. I tried both FSX and P3D resample tool and both gave me no issues whatsoever with the blending. Somehow or another it seems to work fine for me.



Regards

Daniel



Image8.jpg




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Max Perry
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Postby Max Perry » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:03 pm

danchircop, Do you have the settings of water to Ultra?



29Palms, I see 2 issues in the P3D screenshot of the light. The glow on the ground doesn't filter correct, it looks below that baseplate, and the light plane for the beam like effect is missing. Quickly looking at your material settings, there is many differences so I'll just post mine and a screenshot of my most recent lights using one / one.



lights in P3D with one / one material settings below.

XpeKmi4.jpg



material settings

F8vbzZX.jpg

pierrot78
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Postby pierrot78 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:19 am

Orswell, the problem with watermask blending is not even dependent of the level of water detail, it appears as soon as water detail is set to on.

Set to off, the underneath ocean ground is smoothly visible... but the surface then tursn to flat and glass-like.



The resampler does like if it were downgrading the 16 bit watermask, turning it to a 1 bit on/off mask along the mean density/transparency value.

The resulting knife-sharp cutout does not look at all like the original mask, it seems to be entirely re-interpretated.


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29PalmsSD
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Postby 29PalmsSD » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:12 am

Hi Max,



the light bulbs work with your suggested settings. I suppose my checked "assume vertical normal" caused the problem.

BUT the illuminated ground texture and the light bulbs disappear behind semi-transparent layers in the ground polygon.

Markings, dirt, edges are being drawn in front of the light as pictured above.

Is there a way to force the light to be drawn in front ground polygon layers?
Best,
Lars

japan211
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Postby japan211 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:07 pm



Quote:

Quote from 29PalmsSD on December 22, 2013, 11:12

Hi Max,



the light bulbs work with your suggested settings. I suppose my checked "assume vertical normal" caused the problem.

BUT the illuminated ground texture and the light bulbs disappear behind semi-transparent layers in the ground polygon.

Markings, dirt, edges are being drawn in front of the light as pictured above.

Is there a way to force the light to be drawn in front ground polygon layers?






I'm a scenery developer

I use this method to make light

so I hope LM can fix this problem


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Beau Hollis
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Postby Beau Hollis » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:10 am

Do the ground features use no z write? No z write in combination with the new custom zbias is the best way to layer ground decals. I believe adding no z write to the ground poly will exclude it from the back to front sort required for transparent models.
Beau Hollis
Prepar3D Software Architect

japan211
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Postby japan211 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:37 am



Quote:

Quote from Beau on January 16, 2014, 00:10

Do the ground features use no z write? No z write in combination with the new custom zbias is the best way to layer ground decals. I believe adding no z write to the ground poly will exclude it from the back to front sort required for transparent models.




this ground poly use FS2002 SDK to make so can not set zbias and no z write parameter

FS2002 SDK's ground poly is only way to develop FSX and P3DV1.X's scenery

a lot of FSX and P3DV1.X's scenery's use material framebuffer blend Src:One - Dest:One to made light I hope LM can solve this problem



even if use P3DV2's SDK to develop P3DV2's native scenery's ground poly.for the purpose of expressive I hope the ground poly do not exclude transparent model from the back to front sort.some time developers need semitransparent ground poly to show some Low-level ground poly's texture [for example:satellite photo] for more real ground color



Sorry for my poor English

Thank you Beau


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